Shades of 1993:
A raid on a compound of religious fruitcakes in Texas, in the name of “concern for the safety of children.”
Good thing they didn’t save the hell out of those kids like the Feds did at Waco.
One thing that really bugs me about the article is this line:
“State and local law enforcement agencies set up roadblocks around the ranch Thursday evening, preventing journalists from seeing what was happening on the property, according to Randy Mankin, editor of the Eldorado Success weekly newspaper.”
Secrecy and law enforcement never go well together. When you actively prohibit neutral third parties from witnessing the event, you may be able to control the flow of information (and make sure there’s only one version of events), but you create the appearance of impropriety.
I have no doubt there’s some weird shit going on in those polygamist compounds and towns. Going by testimony of exiled members, the elders of the church parcel out the young girls amongst themselves, and keep competition low by kicking out the young men. These guys are keeping their women uneducated, pregnant, and obedient by threatening them with loss of heavenly privileges. Not cool.
However, we have freedom of religion in this country, which means any religion, not just the mainstream faiths, so there’s a conflict there. I mean, it’s easy to crack down on the people with the funky, non-mainstream interpretation of the Bible because having a harem of thirteen-year-old girls is more than a bit icky, but where do you find the balance between freedom to worship as you please, and the welfare of kids? I mean, this may be a cut-and-dried case of child abuse, but what about those folks who don’t believe in modern medicine or blood transfusions for their kids? Where do we reasonably draw the line between religious rights, parental rights, and child welfare?
(And don’t think for a moment that your idea of “firm and fair” child-raising doesn’t meet someone else’s definition of child abuse. For every “spare the rod, spoil the child” parent, there’s someone else out there who will call Social Services on parents for a pat on the bottom or a loud word.)
11 Comments
April 4, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Perhaps, if the BATF and FBI manage to stay away, there won’t be any buildings full of people burnt to the ground.
April 4, 2008 at 4:47 pm
there is a strong correlation of this story with your piece on juveniles and the one on home schooling…you can bet these kids are not attending public schools; and if one of these girls slit the throat of the minister while he was uhh…ministering her, would she face adult charges, juvenile charges, or none at all because she was acting in self-defense?
well, if she had been granted adult status based on good behavior, she’d have a hard time claiming self defense because she was an emancipated adult engaged in consensual behavior…but can she really have the mental and emotional maturity to give consent? does she even want to make such decisions? she may just want to live her childhood without the worldly worries and concerns that face adults…she needs to gain experience and develop logical and analytical skills that only develop with age, so that she can make decisions that are best for her alone.
but if the same girl were made insane by mistreatment and abuse, got hold of one of the compound’s ak’s, wiped out the whole “congregation” and was later deemed likely to wipe out some more folks if given the chance, she must be judged and sentenced or controlled in the same manner as an adult and not be forgiven due to immaturity, because the threat she presents to others overrides the concerns of what is best for her alone.
so gov gets involved…getting innocent kids out of an environment of indoctrination, abuse, and even slavery is a noble goal, but who decides when and if to intervene in the private lives and religion of any group? and how to carry out that intervention? burn them to protect them? government as the appointed agent of the people has a role here but it is the job of the people themselves to assign and limit the scope and method of intervention…and that’s the hard part. jtc
April 4, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Just as with 2A issues, it’s always ‘for the children’. Some states have laws that if a family’s religious beliefs don’t allow medicine, then they are immune from prosecution for following them if ’something bad’ happens.
I don’t think that WI has such a law, as this recent episode would indicate – or they just ignore it.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/ap_on_re_us/daughter_s_death_prayer
There are some restrictions that are reasonable on religious groups – human sacrifice even with a willing victim, and age of consent come to mind.
April 4, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Looks legit to me so far. Parents have a duty of care to the children and to society to raise their kids responsibly. And keeping the jackals of the press out of a criminal investigation makes sense too. These days the networks spend more time trying to make the news and spin it rather than reporting it.
I think that bringing Waco into this is like trying to make chicken salad out of chicken chit. The FBI did not set those buildings on fire, and I personally would have a big problem with allowing child molestors to hide behind libertarian values. When parents infringe on the rights of their children, they infringe on all our rights.
That’s just my gut feeling looking at the info I saw, I reserve the right to modify my stance as more information becomes available.
April 4, 2008 at 10:24 pm
“And keeping the jackals of the press out of a criminal investigation makes sense too.”
Especially if you are planting evidence and hitting people with sticks.
The media sucks, I know. It’s worth the price.
April 5, 2008 at 1:15 am
Oddly enough, the United States many, many years ago told the Mormons that to be recognized as a religion and allowed to remain, they would have to strike polygamy from their teachings.
So we have a splinter sect doing precisely the one thing the government stated would keep them from being unprotected. The precedent against them using their faith as mitigation is already in the books.
But I agree that cutting the media out of the loop it looks like they’re trying to hide something.
April 5, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Ok, so there is an allegation of abuse of 1 girl and for some reason they remove 50?
Something smells here.
April 5, 2008 at 9:55 pm
I don’t think I am alone in the mindset that children should be protected. That being said, removing them from the compound to conduct an investigation seems like the best option. The leader of this group is facing various charges and “was convicted in Utah last year on two counts of being an accomplice to rape, charges related to a marriage he performed in 2001. He still faces trial in Arizona on eight charges of sexual conduct with a minor, incest and conspiracy.” Call me crazy, but I would rather ere on the side of caution. I know charges don’t mean guilt, but I would hate to have to explain to the kids why they were abused and no one helped them. “Just in case” is the reason that many of us who visit this site own and carry guns. The kids can’t.
April 6, 2008 at 5:56 am
Peyote aside (due to a bad court decision), one is generally not allowed to break the law because of a claim of religious belief. Polygamy is illegal, as are sexual relations between middle-aged men and minor teenagers.
This isn’t an issue of governmental interference with parenting rights. The only question is the large number of people who have been removed; however, it seems quite plausible that systematic abuse was occurring, due to the nature of the organization
That said, I agree that excluding the press looks bad. Perhaps it was done to protect the identity of the minors involved? Even so, it generates an appearance of impropriety..
April 9, 2008 at 9:03 am
[...] views were found to be icky by other people. The bad part about it is that the authorities were preventing journalists from seeing what was happening on the property. And that’s shady. Someone should watch the watchmen. The good news is that nobody was set on [...]
December 10, 2008 at 2:36 pm
[...] views were found to be icky by other people. The bad part about it is that the authorities were preventing journalists from seeing what was happening on the property. And that’s shady. Someone should watch the watchmen. The good news is that nobody was set on [...]